undergroundbblist wrote (View Post): › It looks like an auction site using a "UNION" as a way to get people to use their site. What kind of protection will they offer? Unions are legit organizations that offer protection for workers rights. I am a family of working class unions and I too have asked questions and received no answers. As Phase II begins with 10,001 people they ask all who have joined to send in the $5 fee that the joiner said they would commit to equal to $50,005 but the money will "sit"until the phase is complete at 20,000 joined. At 5.00/per for their 20,000 per goal that is a profit of 100,000 dollars in their pockets with no answers as to what we will receive in protection. Unions themselves do not open their own shops. They offer a means for the working class to become educated and enter the work force with the protection of their workers rights. They make sure that workers get the benefits and pay that they deserve due to the quality of education that they provide. And as stated by northwestblvd above Subat lists their email using hotmail and it is the #1 email system out there for scammers. I fully support the strike and will be a hold out on all things ebay until I for one receive the confirmation from ebay that they are listening to the sellers and not sweeping this boycott under the rug, as they have done so far. But I am also seeing a surge in scam sites popping up as a result of the unhappy sellers out there. Sites will promise so much and give you a taste of what they can do and I just believe myself that when Phase II is enacted and the money they are "sitting" on till they reach their goal will disappear unless they leave faster. I believe the golden rule applies here. If it is too good to be true it is." But don't just listen to me check it out for your self. But also check into how scams work. Using a "UNION" to get a marketplace running is deceptive in itself.

I think we're all becoming weary answering the same ludicrous charges over and over, first on the eBay boards, then on The Point site, and now here on PSU, again. (See Julia's extended post on SUBAT and the definition of "union" also on the PSU forums.) It would be one thing, and useful, if what were claimed had any hint of reality about it. Yet the trouble is, everything charged can easily be seen to be silly hype and fear-mongering simply by reading the SUBAT campaign page to make a 'WeBay' on the Point site: http://www.thepoint.com/campaigns/subat

I find this one particularly hilarious, quoting as it does Hellen Keller in the signature: "Optimism is the faith that leads to achievement. Nothing can be done without hope and confidence." Anyone who knows even a little about the life --and yes, politics-- of Helen Keller will be able to surmise easily that she would almost surely have been a strong proponent of something like SUBAT and the drive to create a seller-owned WeBay site.

Someone above was panicking about the domain name 'WeBay' being taken, offering this as evidence of a "scam" in the offing. Perhaps it is rude to say so, but this is ignorance at work. Simply reading the campaign page makes it clear that 'WeBay' is a concept here, not the name of the proposed people's auction site. That will have to be determined by a mass vote, not so much because the name is taken (in fact it expires soon, if you look at Whois), but because it is likely owned, in a round-about way, by eBay already. They would assuredly attempt a claim of infringement for any site attempting to operate an auction venue under that name, especially if it stood to pose a threat to their own operation (as a large free site would). The final name is up to us, collectively, in the same way the characteristics and features of a future venue held in common are up to all of us. This is the point of creating a people's site: to serve the needs of we who will use it. We can call it whatever we like, but it's the collective control of it that will make it different from anything else that has ever existed as an auction venue. A site with this basic organizational structure, impossible to buy out, is the only thing that can stand against and defeat a monopoly like eBay.

To address the latest distortions (one is tempted to say "libel"):

It looks like an auction site using a "UNION" as a way to get people to use their site. What kind of protection will they offer?

Of course even a cursory review of the site shows there is no auction site now, but simply a campaign to create one, to be owned by everyone and therefore the private property of no one, thus safe from the usual buy-out by eBay Inc. Specifically, it's an attempt to unify the sellers fleeing eBay into an organization --call it a cyber-union or an e-union for now-- that can effectively marshal and pool the resources of its members to bring a plan of this scope to fruition. It won't happen over night, as nothing worthwhile ever does. But if work isn't begun soon, it won't happen at all, and we'll all remain under the boot of monopoly eBay. A site collectively owned by the unified users is proposed because it is the only thing a monopoly like eBay can't buy up if it grows large enough to threaten their revenue. If any other grows large enough and begins to contend, eBay will buy up a Wagglepop or an Onlineauctions.com, or even a Craigslist (apparently they already have 25% of Craigslist), which is what it means to have a monopoly. The WeBay plan is meant to create a wall for eBay to hit, when the time comes. The more of us there are safe behind that wall, the shorter will be the reign of the GreedBay monopoly, in the long run.

Unions are legit organizations that offer protection for workers rights. I am a family of working class unions and I too have asked questions and received no answers.

It's unclear to me exactly what the poster means in saying s/he is a family of working class unions (from a union family, I guess?), but I would like to know where this person or persons asked the questions and received no answers. S/he is welcome to come to the SUBAT page at any time and find people willing to discuss any aspect of the issue, myself included. The whole purpose of the comment area at that site is collective discussion and problem solving, and the "Problem eBay" page, too. You can also e-mail me directly (bijouxlily@yahoo.com), though I think a discussion open to everyone is better.

As Phase II begins with 10,001 people they ask all who have joined to send in the $5 fee that the joiner said they would commit to equal to $50,005 but the money will "sit"until the phase is complete at 20,000 joined. At 5.00/per for their 20,000 per goal that is a profit of 100,000 dollars in their pockets with no answers as to what we will receive in protection.

Worries like this always make me laugh, mainly because of the pettiness. Many have said the amount should have been higher, to get the thing done more quickly, but it was set at USD $5.00 specifically because it's such a small amount, it could not conceivably be a hardship for anyone, neither here nor abroad. If you read the draft plans for the 'Phases' (up to IV on line now, hit reload if they don't show), it's clearly stated that the money, when requested at all, is to be held safely in escrow in the most transparent way the group, collectively, can find to do that by that time. No one person ever has access to it and if anyone tried, I would be the first to advocate their expulsion and prosecution to the fullest extent of the law. SUBAT is legally chartered before any funds are drawn (debates on-going now as to whether it should be an official union, a non-profit foundation, a co-op, etc.) and everything is made safe and legal, well before any money is ever aggregated. (How to collect is also up for discussion, e.g., Google payments, PayPal (yuk!) with an added 3% to cover their fee, credit cards, or actual $5 bills through the mail. The first goal was set at 10,000 exactly so that there would be many people on board well in advance of important decisions like this. Decisions are to be by motions and voting, again collective.)

And the other question is, "protection" from what exactly? From eBay? The whole purpose here is to get free of eBay, permanently, in a way they cannot crush. What the $5 goes to funding is of course the construction of the new site, servers and all. Even a prototypical server farm smaller than eBay's will take funds to set up. There are many hardware dealers on eBay, all of whom would stand to benefit from a free site, so it is hoped discounts may be had when the time comes to buy, but in any case, funds will be needed to make the site and that's the purpose of the $5. It's not protection money. It's what could finally buy us true freedom from future fees and true freedom from perpetual dependence on GreedBay.

Unions themselves do not open their own shops. They offer a means for the working class to become educated and enter the work force with the protection of their workers rights. They make sure that workers get the benefits and pay that they deserve due to the quality of education that they provide.

I suppose this may sound unkind, and for that I apologize, but this view shows the limitations the current system has imposed on all our understanding of the concept of unions broadly and the nature of the labor movement in general. I'm sure the poster is not old enough to remember it (very few of us are anymore), but before and during the Depression the understanding of unionization in America was much broader and far more political. Strikes were broken with guns and clubs, actual Pinkertons beat and raped and stole with impunity, organizers' families were ejected from company towns with nothing but the clothes on their backs, and injured workers were simply discarded, thrown bleeding into the streets. Miners came down from the mountains in thousands with rifles in hand, the "Bonus Army" marched on Washington, while the rich called for the literal extermination of those populating the Hoovervilles. Many workers felt the tame, hang-dog approach described above was simply "false consciousness," since it set up workers --who produce everything in the society-- as perpetual, inevitable servants to unelected scions or masters of industry. Five of every eight hours you work, we used to say, produce nothing but pure profit for the bosses. It was the nature of the system itself that was at issue in those days. And as to unions not opening their own shops, no, that's true, and the Webay plan is quite different in that regard, specifically because the eBay sellers already own the 'shops in the mall,' so to speak, and need only leave the mall structure and create their own new one. In the older, industrial union model, the workers didn't create new factories for themselves, but simply organized and worked toward the day of the General Strike, at which point they were to take over the factories from the bosses and redirect the focus and purpose of production itself, toward meeting the needs of the people rather than the whims of capitalist profit. That's what a General Strike meant originally, not a temporary stoppage of work, but a quite literal reclamation of the very means of production by the people. These are dangerous ideas, these days, and it was a very different time then. Radical measures to stem the tide of misery were very popular. It's important to remember that, without that more radical industrial union movement, none of us would ever have had a weekend, for example, nor things like pensions or an end to child labor in the USA. It took a real threat to the establishment to force them to make even modest concessions, most of all the monopolies. There have been many schisms within the labor movement in the intervening years, and this is not the place to detail them. But the eventual outcome has been a crushing and silencing of all but the most conciliatory trades union approaches, which we see above. For myself, I would say this silencing and limitation of the earlier union concept is at the root of the decades of corruption that followed, tainting the very concept of unionization for many younger people. What we need now, in the 21st century, is renewed dialogue, not dismissal, and certainly not diatribes that spread misinformation or throw around charges of petty "scams" when people do try to organize to lift ourselves up.

And as stated by northwestblvd above Subat lists their email using hotmail and it is the #1 email system out there for scammers.


In fact, no, the general SUBAT e-mail is with Yahoo (subat_forever@yahoo.com) and the reason is that it is accessible to everyone working toward the project, wherever they are, so that urgent mail will not lie dormant because one person was busy. I am only here answering you now because it's my day to man that e-mail (being widely spammed already) and two people wrote in about this (rather redundant) attacking post. Everyone who has joined the campaign does so with an e-mail, not web-based, and you can also contact the staff at The Point (in Chicago) from there. The SUBAT campaign page is just what it says it is: a campaign for collective action by eBay users. I resent being called or lumped in with "scammers" and I would advise you to read up before you throw around such degrading accusations. It makes me wonder whose side you are on.

I fully support the strike and will be a hold out on all things ebay until I for one receive the confirmation from ebay that they are listening to the sellers and not sweeping this boycott under the rug, as they have done so far.

You'll have a long wait. Many of us have been waiting 10 years already, through all the other strikes and boycotts, which curiously few seem to remember now. The point is that a monopoly like eBay does not have to listen, as part of the definition of what a monopoly is. And even if it were possible to put a fire under them, the only thing that might conceivably do it: a WeBay, a site whose owner-base was so broad that even eBay Inc. couldn't afford to buy out everyone who relied on it for their income. Passively wait for eBay and you'll be their slave forever. EBay may be happy with that approach, but no one else I know is.

But I am also seeing a surge in scam sites popping up as a result of the unhappy sellers out there. Sites will promise so much and give you a taste of what they can do and I just believe myself that when Phase II is enacted and the money they are "sitting" on till they reach their goal will disappear unless they leave faster. I believe the golden rule applies here. If it is too good to be true it is." But don't just listen to me check it out for your self. But also check into how scams work. Using a "UNION" to get a marketplace running is deceptive in itself.

Yes, if people are happier waiting for eBay to remake their site solely in the interests of the users who made it, to dispense with the fee extortion (which has no relationship to the costs of running the site, of course), to institute a democratic procedure for approval or rejection of system structure and system changes, and also of course to charge no fees, certainly, they should do as our friend here does and sit on their hands. Clearly it would be sheer madness to gamble with the mighty sum of $5.00 or take some action ourselves.

However, if any others actually believed those words of Helen Keller, that it requires hope to make change, I hope they'll come to the campaign page and talk. How would you ensure the funds held in escrow are safe and legal, accessible by none until an elected body drawn from membership is set up to oversee dispensation? If there are lawyers and bankers --retired or otherwise- who can help, we want them. The goal is 100% transparency and anyone with solid suggestions on how to effect that is encouraged to e-mail or join the campaign. A united organization of auction site users is needed to plan a project of this scope, one that seeks our collective best interest, and thus the union concept. What is deceptive is this post, hurling baseless accusations and frankly trying to kill any hope, self-reliance, or confidence sellers might have. And as to the "golden rule," our friend is jaded indeed. The Golden Rule has nothing to do with "scams." The Golden Rule: Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. If the Golden Rule is true, it implies the sellers, together, can make their own site, to serve the needs of all, precisely because we face the same problem, a collective problem. It requires a collective solution. Undergroundbblist is welcome to hope and have confidence, or not, as s/he sees fit. The whole point of the WeBay plan is having a choice.

northwestblvd wrote (View Post): › Hello Everyone, Some very powerful points have been made about the strike/boycott and some sites popping up that may be out to rip us off. Unrest is the breading grounds for scams to pop up. In the case of the Subat, I mis-quoted some information (scammers using their names and emails with subtle changes not noticed right away) caused me to think I was being asked to do certain things by the subat. The point with the email is a real problem and hence my assertion is valid in the concern I had for the email they had for the cause. What I received in my email was subtle changes to the email account by adding a number or an alternate letter in the address. After getting reamed by one of the subat folks publically, I had to go back and try to piece things to gether and try to defend myself. I then found these subtle changes in the email addys and realized what was going on. There were individuals trying to create desention in the ranks and altimately pull off a scam using the subat name sake. I to support the strike/boycott and hope the folks with the subat campaign get a better email address than the current one. I do owe the campaigners an apology for some comments I made, but the one about the email address I stand fast to and will not change my opinion. An earlier statement made by another member here brought forth a good point about subat not actually saying they were a union, and that person was right, as I responded to the keyword "UNION" in the subat name. Thanks for this site and all the input and ideas. We will come out on top if we just work together. Bill Vincent Northwest Blvd Auctions undergroundbblist wrote (View Post): › It looks like an auction site using a "UNION" as a way to get people to use their site. What kind of protection will they offer? Unions are legit organizations that offer protection for workers rights. I am a family of working class unions and I too have asked questions and received no answers. As Phase II begins with 10,001 people they ask all who have joined to send in the $5 fee that the joiner said they would commit to equal to $50,005 but the money will "sit"until the phase is complete at 20,000 joined. At 5.00/per for their 20,000 per goal that is a profit of 100,000 dollars in their pockets with no answers as to what we will receive in protection. Unions themselves do not open their own shops. They offer a means for the working class to become educated and enter the work force with the protection of their workers rights. They make sure that workers get the benefits and pay that they deserve due to the quality of education that they provide. And as stated by northwestblvd above Subat lists their email using hotmail and it is the #1 email system out there for scammers. I fully support the strike and will be a hold out on all things ebay until I for one receive the confirmation from ebay that they are listening to the sellers and not sweeping this boycott under the rug, as they have done so far. But I am also seeing a surge in scam sites popping up as a result of the unhappy sellers out there. Sites will promise so much and give you a taste of what they can do and I just believe myself that when Phase II is enacted and the money they are "sitting" on till they reach their goal will disappear unless they leave faster. I believe the golden rule applies here. If it is too good to be true it is." But don't just listen to me check it out for your self. But also check into how scams work. Using a "UNION" to get a marketplace running is deceptive in itself.

Bill, it's Lily (from the Point's first boycott-eBay campaign) and I have Julia on the line, too. What does this mean?? (And good Lord, no one means to "ream" anyone! It's a debate, of course, and I think we've all been rather horrified to be called scammers, when everyone has been working so hard to do something that is essentially unselfish.) Do you have those alternate e-mail addresses? Julia's original message to you, she says, was through the Point's secure e-mail system so you should have received nothing from any of us via any Yahoo mail, zero. We have checked with everyone who was on board back a couple of weeks ago and no one sent anything via Yahoo. E-mail me through the Point, ok? If we get these e-mails with alterations, John P. says we can track down who made the accounts by contacting Yahoo! Inc. and that it may have been literally illegal. It sounds wild and hard to believe, but many times before eBay Inc. has engaged in union-busting efforts, most notably by indirectly shutting down pro-union webpages (providers pressured to drop organizing sites, terminate the accounts of the subscribers who made them, etc.). As we say, it's not paranoia when they're really out to get you, so everyone should be aware of this. If any of us succeed in threatening eBay's bottom line, they will act to stop us in any way they can, through buy-out, threat of legal action, and I would not put even rumor-mongering past some members of current eBay staff. So if some person or persons, whether in the employ of eBay Group, Inc. or not, has indeed been impersonating members of the SUBAT campaign for a WeBay, please do save all e-mails, headers intact, and forward them along to me or Julia via The Point.com and we'll see what can be done. And we do think it's true, sellers working together will come out on top. In fact, working together is the only way we can.
Thanks,
Lily

Wow, SUBATersUnited~
You said it far more eloquently than I could. I was just tempted to respond along the line of
blah, blah, and blah.
Underground: Huh? your post is almost ridiculous. It is so clear that you didn't assimilate anything on thepoint website. It almost doesn't warrant a response.
it's yahoo yahoo, not hotmail. With the content of your
email, all so mindless, without thought, I find your quote using Helen Keller almost absurd and even insulting. Nothing can be done without hope and confidence. Someone must have told you was a good quote because the spirit of your post shows no understanding of it to me.
Tell you what...you continue to wait for all things eBay, and wait for ebay to confirm they are listening...while you are waiting, why don't you go and read the website...
you'll have LOTS of time to get thru their message while you wait.
www.thepoint.com/campaign/subat
No further comment from me...sorry, not even worth my time, or energy.
ssandee

piazzapizza wrote (View Post): › I I am also looking into the legality of eBay's price fixing and hope to be able to file a class action lawsuit against them

Keep us posted on any developments, PPizza

ssandee

Here is another free site www.QxBid.com where you can buy sell or open a store 100% free

eurumy wrote (View Post): › Here is another free site www.QxBid.com where you can buy sell or open a store 100% free

Oh, goody! Sell site #276 personally checked and added to spreadsheet. Oh look, digigo sells cars here, too. Dolce & Gabbana and Prada at great prices! *sigh* Dang, I think I'm getting jaded... They do have a 'real' car seller too, though (mentioned for contrast)

Hey everyone!

I found some VERY good, informative links...the first one is lengthy, but well worth the time...the other two are much shorter, but contain valuable information/points. These would be great to send out to everyone you know (buyers & sellers)...it shows that our being upset isn't just because we're afraid of getting our precious feedback dinged, or that we will no longer be able to leave negative feedback, etc...it's NOT all in our minds...

http://imamerchant.org/blog/wp-
content/uploads/2008/02/deutschebankpatel020608.pdf

This Internet Merchant article isn't nearly as long...great reading:

http://imamerchant.org/blog/looking-at-ebays-dsrs-i-am-concerned/

Here is another thread...excellent!!
http://reviews.ebay.com/No-Negative-Feedback-for-Buyers-What-an-odd-
solution_W0QQugidZ10000000005275539

I am quite tired of 'webay'. I am an attorney who has a hand in intellectual property. 'webay' is an infringement on a host of registered trademarks. That word needs to leave the lexicon everyone who is serious about establishing an independent site.

Also, not interested in a 'union'. I am not anyone's employee and will tolerate not interference in our business. Also, no one negotiates on my behalf and I am not bound by anyone else's negotiations. Now, if folks want to talk cooperative, a place where seller's pool their resources for the common good - I'm here to listen and participate.

I just found this forum and decided to join up. Glad to see that there are others who feel as I do about Ebay.

I started a site called AltecTrader.com and all listings are free and even better, there are no final value fees either. Not sure if anyone here is interested or not but it would help us both if you are looking for a free site to post your goods on. It will help me because I am looking to boost my membership as well as boost the number of products being offered to the public.

Hope to see you all there sometime.

http://www.altectrader.com

How is it that I see no mention of google base on front page of this site?

I paid all my bills this month and last with income from it. I closed my store on ebay.
Is powersellers unite missing the obvious, or is it an undercover ebay operation designed to galvanize people back to ebay?

Ioffer nor bidville, nor ecrater produced results in my tests, but google base came through with equal or better results than my ebay store did for me.

Reason I suspect that is for no mention of google base (base.google.com)
ebay's obvious biggest problem.

The reason google base would not be on the auction site count is that google base is for submitting items which will appear in Google Product Search/Google Shopping.

Google Product Search, now called Google Shopping, is a search engine, which is why it won't be listed here either.

hope this helps,
sylvia

This is not an auction site, but even better. You can list your products for a small annual fee and they cover all other costs associated with the sale including payment processing fees. You can't go wrong selling your products here:

http://www.mogiz.com/Pages/SellersMembershipInfo.aspx

2 month ago a friend of mine registered the domain(s)

ebayvoting.com

with 3 different modifications.

On pressure of ebay the publication of the domains was stopped.

In principle we're looking for a cooperation, which brings the world-wide
protest against the ebay policy to public.[/